It was a good album.

We know it was a good album.  Do you have any thoughts on why it didn't do better than it did?  Why didn't it have the success of "Bombs Away...."?

I have no idea.

Would another single have made any difference?  'Odin' was a terrific song, but it didn't seem like it was commercial enough to have done anything.

I've never been good at second-guessing.  Those questions should really be directed at the record company.  Once the album is delivered to the record company, it's out of my hands.  The marketability of an album is purely a record company's situation.

So you didn't have anything to say about the single?  It was their decision?

Absolutely not.

Why not?

That's the name of the game.

That doesn't make any sense.

The music business doesn't make any sense.  It has nothing to do with music.  Once you accept that premise, it all makes sense.

So if you were going to do it, if you were going to choose a song off "Dream Babies....." to release as a single, which would you choose?

I would have picked 'Wheels of Thunder,' but that's just my choice.

Why do you really not have a choice?

Why don't I have a choice?  I'm too close to it.  I'm the one who makes the record.  I can give them my opinion but they're the ones that have to sell it.  They're the ones who get input from the radio stations - what they can play.  From the promotional men in the field - what I can get played.  And to give them a single they don't feel they can get played is a waste of money and a waste of time.  Just because I make the album doesn't mean I know everything about it.

You had no input.....have you ever had input?

I've had input, but they don't have to accept it.

Did you suggest 'Wheels of Thunder'?

Yes, I did.  They refused.

When you split with RSO there was obviously a tiff involved.  Shouldn't you have gotten a gold record for "Bombs Away DreamBabies"?

Yes, I think I should have.  An accountant's about to find out even as we speak.

Good.  We'd still like to see it happen - much after the fact.

I'd just like to see the money.

In 1981, you did The Kingston Trio reunion, with all three versions of the Trio.  How did you feel about doing that?

We had a great time.

Were you apprehensive at all when it started getting suggested?

Not at all. Not a bit.

So it was just a grand old time with all of you guys?

I had a great time.  I just thought it was one great time.  The evening was just pure fun.

Whose idea was it?

The idea's been bandied about.....forever and ever.  So I don't really know whose idea it was.  PBS and Chuck Simon, the producer, put it together.  I felt it could have been done a lot better.  Steve Fiott, Lou Robin and myself have another Kingston Trio special in the works now, that we're working on.  We have some interest from the cable networks.  Hopefully in '84 we'll be doing a special as it should be done on The Kingston Trio.

The old Kingston Trio?

The same situation.

All the Trios together?

Separately, but together.

Seeing all those bodies up at one time was a little disconcerting.

You needed a programme to keep the players straight.

Moving on, when you and Chuck McDermott started singing together, did you feel that this might be a direction you'd want to take - to have partner again?

We've talked about it.  It's really not a partnership at this point.  At this point, it's Chuck playing and singing my songs with me. Chuck has his own career.  This is more of.....what's the term I want?  It's more of friends singing together, rather than a partnership.  It's not like The Everly Brothers or Jan and Dean.

Have you ever collaborated on any writing?

Not from scratch.  We've offered suggestions on songs that I've written or that Chuck's written.  But we've never really sat down from scratch and written a song.

Do you think you might, sometime?

Anything's possible.  We haven't avoided it.  We just haven't done it.

In 1982, there was a lot of talk about an album, "Dreams on a Shingle."  It was going to be acoustic; very mellow.....

That turned into "Blondes."

.....'Dreamers on the Rise,' 'Hearts and Dreams on the Line,' 'Wings of St. Michael,' and a lot of songs you were doing in concert in 1982.  All of a sudden "Blondes" showed up.  It was so different from what anybody had expected.  Obviously. You had been talking about this other album all during '82.  What happened?  How did it change direction like that?

It just seemed like the thing to do.

Were you having trouble selling "Dreams on a Shingle"?

I never tried.  It seemed the songs were all going in the direction of the California girl, and I'd always wanted to do a 'theme' album.....one thing led to another and it just sort of evolved into "Blondes."

What's going to happen to all the rest of the songs?

Oh, they'll come out somewhere, somehow. Hopefully.....on something.

We hope so.  We had understood that you had been shopping "Dreams on a Shingle" around.  That you had recorded it and that you were taking it around to the record companies.

I think I did take it to two companies.....who passed on it.

Do you feel like it was maybe too mellow, that they wouldn't go for it for that reason?

I've tried to avoid second-guessing record companies.  What they feel they can sell and what can actually be sold are two different things.  It's true that there is a very narrow demographic on people who buy pop albums.  And it's a very young demographic.  They try to work within that demographic, and the more they work within that demographic, the narrower it gets.  They're digging their own grave, so to speak.  Some are doing well with it.  I just think it's a narrow way to look at the record business.

Definitely.  If you think the record companies are boxing themselves in doing this, could you ever see yourself starting your own record company?

I have a custom label in the works called Homecoming basically a folk label, with acoustic instrumental albums and vocal albums.  It's music that fits into your life rather than intruding on your life.  It is music to score your life with.  The first album, called "The Gathering," will be a selection of songs from three albums released by Homecoming in 1984.  Hopefully it will be out in March.

Kathy and Buffy, Heriza and Ford, they're doing an acoustic, vocal album of original tunes called "Hearts Together."  I have a terrific guitar player named Bruce Abrams who plays Irish folk music.  He's going to have an album called "Delancey Street."

I'm doing an instrumental album called "Centennial" what I'm calling the "Americsn Journey" series, with a piece called 'The Plains,' a piece called 'The Wilderness,' another piece called 'Behind the Wheel' and so on.  It's very.....it's the antithesis of pop 40 records.

Is that going to be all original stuff on there?

Yes, so far.  It's music that's not designed for the radio.  It is.....there are no hits on it.  It's music to fit into your life.  It is for people who find pop music too.....erratic to play.  When friends come over for dinner and classical is too heavy, and pop is too.....sledgehammer.  It's another approach to making records.

How did you come up with that idea?  To do an instrumental album?

Oh, it's what I have the most fun doing.  I've been doing instrumental pieces at home on my eight track.  Finding in my own life a void of records to buy - what I wanted to hear.  What I really wanted to play in the car and what I wanted to play at home. And after the success of Windham Hill Records, I knew there was a market for it - and without a market for it, there's no way to headway into that field.  Windham Hill's William Ackerman was a real pioneer.  He really established the fact that there are people out there who want to buy those kinds of records.  Homecoming is different from Windham Hill in that it's a very American label.  It's a very folky label.  It's very roots oriented but it's not a roots label.  It's not Doc Watson.  It is a vision of America that perhaps never was, but is still a vision that's hard to find.

That's the kind of stuff you've always been so good at.

It's my strongest suit. So you might as well go with your strength.

How is it going to be distributed?

First of all I'm going to record stores in California and Boston, perhaps Phoenix - deal directly with the stores.  It will be sold through Kingston Korner, which has a mailing list.  There'll be a postcard in the album.  You can order it directly by mail.  I'll do a test marketing on it at college bookshops.  Do a test marketing - see what people like about it - what people don't like about it.  What are they interested in?  From there go through distributors.  And do as much promotion on it as I can.  The difficulty with a label like this is, how do people know it's out there.  Perhaps sell it at stores that are not record stores - boutiques and things - where people go to buy normally, but are intimidated by record stores.  They don't want to go to record stores.

Have you asked people about.....when you get a card in a record - I just bought the Nanci Griffith album when she opened for you at McCabe's.  There was a card in there for Featherbed Records, and they'd send you a catologue and put you on their mailing list.  Does that approach usually work?

It can work very well.  It depends on how big the mailing list is.  How much response they get from the mailing.  It works as well as people walking into Tower Records and seeing forty bins of records and wading through them looking for a record they like.  Did you order the catologue?

Yes.

Well, there's your answer.

I'm a little different than a lot of people in the record buying public.

Right.  That's exactly right, Molly.  But the point is, you're different because you are not a typical record buyer that goes out and buys Duran Duran.  However, there are more people like you than there are people like them.

I was beginning to have my doubts about that.

There are 200 million people in the nation, and a major hit album sells one million copies.  That's one/twohundredth of the population.  There are exceptions to every rule - Michael Jackson - but there are more people who are not buying records than are buying records.  So the record buying public is a vast minority.

That's probably true.  Back to "Blondes" for just a minute.  How did you get together with Allegiance?

Mike Gardner, who was my manager at the time, had a connection with them.

Are you satisfied with what they did for you on "Blondes"?

Not at all.

It seemed to me that they did absolutely nothing.  There were no ads in the trades.  They weren't getting Pickwick to distribute it.  It wasn't in any of the record stores.....

I think they could have done a lot more.

Is Allegiance going to do the "Trancas" album.....what happened to the "Trancas" album?!?

It's sitting in a box.

We're not going to see that in the near future?

I don't know at this point.

That just got put on a back burner?

I'm having some major problems with Allegiance.  It's about to go into litigation, so I'm not really at liberty to discuss it.  As far as the "Trancas" album goes.....I don't know what's going to happen with it.

Would that be something that you'd put out on Homecoming?

It's possible I could put it out on a subsidiary label.  Homecoming is going to be a very definite conceptual label, where someone who buys one product on Homecoming will want to buy the whole catologue, because it fits a certain ideal, a certain goal or mood.  I have to be very careful not to make it a pop label.  A label's only a name.  I could release something on another label but it costs a lot of money to press records.  The cover costs $3,000. It's $1-50 to press a record.  It's a very costly situation.

Not too many people know about the Swedish release of "Blondes".....

Not too many people outside of Sweden know about that.

That one all of a sudden turned up.  It had twslve songs on it, instead of the ten from the American album.  It had three songs that never even showed up on the American album.  How did that come about?

I'd sent them some demos.  I sent them the master of where "Blondes" was at that point - it wasn't even finished really.  They wanted the songs off the demos.  They wanted 'Same Old Heart' and.....I can't even remember what else is on it.....

'All the Desperate Men.'

' All the Desperate Men.'  So I sent them to them.  That easy.

It seemed strange at the time that you weren't aware that the album had come out, or which tapes they had used, what songs had ended up being on the album.....

Molly, it's Sweden!  Unless they send me something, I don't know what's going on.  I'm always the last to know.

During '82, before the release of "Blondes," you were doing a lot of concerts - almost every month.  The GoldenBear, McCabe's, The Ice House, The Palomino - your regular circuit around Southern California.  As soon as "Blondes" came out you just stopped doing anything.  I thought you'd go out and tour behind the album.  Why did you decide not to do it?

I didn't want to.  I wanted to take a year off and write.  So I did.

Would "Blondes" have done better?

No.  If you can't buy it in the stores, there's nothing I can do.  I could have played in every city in every state but if you can't buy it in the stores, it's not going to sell.

Was that Allegiance, or was that Pickwick, the distributor? Pickwick had the albums.....

You'd have to ask Allegiance about that.  Call Marty Goldrod at Allegiance and ask him.  I'd be interested to hear his answers.

I know Pickwick had them.  They had lots of them.  I would be interested in knowing where they went.

So would I.

It seemed like anyone who wanted the album had to special order it.  Canterbury Records in Pasadena has always carried your catolgue.  They never got "Blondes."  They said their reasoning was they didn't want to deal with Pickwick.  They said Pickwick doesn't ship, so they wouldn't put it in because it was coming through Pickwick.  So I wondered if that was more of a problem than anything Allegiance was doing?

I think there were many problems.

What about "Revenge of the Budgie"?  Where did that come from?  Whose idea was it for you and Nick Reynolds to get together?

We were originally going to do it with Dave Guard, but that just wasn't coming together.  So Nick and I said, what the heck, why don't we just do it?  Our good friend, Steve Fiott, agreed to back the project.  We went in for ten days last summer and did it.  It was really that simple.  It was that easy.  Effortless.

Where did you get a couple of those songs - 'Living on Easy' and 'Buddy Won't You Roll Down the Line'?

'Buddy Won't You Roll Down the Line' is an old folk tune that Pete Seeger first discovered.  The Trio had recorded a version of it way back when.  We'd always loved the song, so we decided to write new lyrics and do it.  'Living on Easy' was a song that Nick had found - in the true Kingston Trio tradition.

One of my all-time favourite songs is 'Cheyenne.'  Why did you re-record it?

It's one of my all-time favourite songs, too.  I've never done the 'up' version of it.  It's really a Kingston Trio song.  It really lends itself to that form, which was important for Nick and I to maintain because that's what we do together.

How was it, playing again with him after all those years?

It was great.  It was really fun.  It was like we never stopped.

On the cover of "Budgie" you are absolutely.....

I have no idea!

.....in stitches.  What was the joke?

I have no idea.  It was one of many.

Just from the good times?

We had that good a time.  That series of pictures is really indicative of the kind of time we had.

And you still did the album in ten days?

Ten days.  It was an EP.

It was supposed to be an EP, and they ended up doing it as an LP, and there's all that wasted vinyl on it.....

EP's are generally the size of albums now.  An EP is just fewer songs than an album.  It's a lot cheaper - lower studio costs.

How much more would it have cost to do one more song, two more songs, just to fill it out a little bit?

Actually, nothing really.  Would have been a couple of grand, but we ran out of time.  Nick had to go back to Oregon, and we hadn't worked them up so.....it wouldn't have been that much, but we just totally ran out of time.

How did you get into doing the songs for the movies "Smokey and the Bandit 3" and "Hot Dog"?

"Hot Dog" was through the writer and co-producer, Mike Marvin, an old friend of mine, who wanted a couple of songs for the movie.  "Smokey 3" was through Tom Mount at Universal.  All connections.

Do they just say, okay, we have a movie, this is the plot, and we need a song for this sort of scene and you just submit - and if they like them, you're in?

Exactly.  Exactly right.

So what happened to 'Bringing Down the Moon' in "Hot Dog"?

They cut the entire scene.  After seeing the movie, I can understand why.

Along the same vein, in "Smokey 3," 'Ain't the Gold' was in the movie, and that didn't' end up on the album.  Why not?  It should have been.

Because it was supposed to be released on Allegiance.

That's something that is supposedly on "Trancas"?

It is on the "Trancas" album.  It is a collection of songs - where it ends up, at this point, I don't have any idea.  I have a tape with a lot of songs on it. What the album will be, or where it will be, I don't know.  I have no answer to that.

OmahaRainbow is celebrating tenyears in publication.....

Congratulations, Peter It seems like a lot longer than that to me.

Why?

It just seems that it's been.....a lot longer than ten years.  When you consider that 'Gold' came out five years ago - it seems like Omaha Rainbow's been around longer than ten years.  But who am I to quibble?

How did he get into this thing with you?

I think he had brain damage as a child.  Low protein in his diet.....I don't know - I'm just very lucky.

So during the past ten years, while Peter has been writing Omaha Rainbow, what have been some of the ups and downs for you?

No hit record.  No label.  Label.  Hit record.  No hit record.  No label.  Same ones.

Is that all it's been?

Pretty much, yeah.

Has there been anything that really stands out in your mind?

Getting a hit record.  Getting on RSO - having everyone write to the label.  And then reaching success on that label.  It was a good milestone, I think.

As long as we're back to RSO for a second, "Fire in theWind" was a great album, but I think it had sort of the same problem that "Dream Babies" did that maybe it wasn't the right single.....

Without a single there's no reason to put out an album.  There was no single on that album.  There was nothing that could have gotten airplay.

Are you planning to do any tours in the near future?

Sure, I'd love to do some tours.  I hope so.  I'm trying to put something together now - an East Coast tour.

With the band?
.
Probably just Chuck and I.  It costs a lot of money - a lot of money to take five guys around the country.

How do you see your own music going in the future?  Do you see yourself changing your styles?

It always has.

Are you going to get into video at all?

I doubt it.  I don't know.  I can't predict the future.  It always is something other than what you think it's going to be.

In what direction do you see music in general going?

Splintered.  I think it's going to splinter.  I think it's going to be a situation of.....pockets of people buying pockets of music. And the top 40 being an ever increasing narrow band.  I think it'll be people buying music in ways we haven't thought of yet. Mailing lists.  TV ordering.  Word of mouth.  I don't think people can live without music they want.  The trick is how to get the music to them.  Music and video will have an even stronger influence on each other.  WhenTV becomes stereo.....when technology reaches that point that music and video are economically realistic to do, it's going to broaden itself again.

In one of the last interviews you did, you talked about how some of your songs just "come" to you.  Do they come in bits and pieces?

I get afragment.....and I chase it from there.

When they come to you like that, do they come quickly?

Sometimes.  Sometimes it takes a long time.  Some songs never have totally come.

You talked about 'Midnight Wind' - how you couldn't write it down fast enough.....

Right, yeah, in the airport.

Where did 'Midnight Wind' come from?

I have no idea.  It Came from out there.  Where does music come from?

When you're putting together an album and you need a certain kind of song, how hard is it for you to come up with a song?

Not hard at all.  That's the easiest part.  Once I know what I want, then I just go write it.  It's not knowing what I want that it gets hard.  And it usually comes to the point in an album where you feel that the balance isn't right - I need a song that will do this, and I write a song like that.

What makes you decide to chang a song?  We have now heard several versions of 'Queen of Hollywood High' and 'Dreamers on the Rise' and 'Same Old Heart'....

'Same Old Heart' never felt right to me before.  Neither did 'Queen of Hollywood High.'  'Dreamers on the Rise' hasn't changed.

I guess it seems different hearing you and Chuck do it solo acoustic as opposed to hearing it, say, on the "Budgie" album.

The only difference in the arrangement is that Nick's singing a different harmony part.  Exact same guitar parts.

How did you change 'Field Where the Angels Dance to 'Queen of Hollywood High'?  Why did you leave out that verse?

It wasn't clear.  There were too many images in one song.  I'll hold onto that verse and use it some other time.

One last question.  There is an underground movement around the United States to have you elected President.

This is the first I've heard of thismovement.

We are working very diligently on this.  What would be your platform.....

I'm not running!

.....and who would be your running mate?

Chuck would have to be my running mate.  Wait a minute!  This is ludicrous.  I mean, this is really an underground movement? How many are involved in this movement?

I don't know offhand.  I'd have to take a poll and find out.

Eight?

More than eight!

You say around the country.....

Oh, yes.  Here and back east.....

This is a real groundswell - a real grass roots movement?  The people correspond and.....Molly, are you putting me on?

No, I'm not putting you on!

How long has this been going on?.....Well, I'd better get a move on.  If  I'm going to catch Mondale, I'd better get on it!.....Maybe I'd better wait four years just to make sure all the bumper stickers are printed.