Omaha Rainbow : Issue 22

John Stewart - interviewed by Roger Scott

The name John Stewart has only become familiar to many people just recently, such is the power of a hit single, and yet there is a twenty year story behind John Stewart.  Rather than me throw all these probing questions at you which you've heard a zillion times, you just tell me the story.  Take us back and take us through it, starting with the very first thing which you heard maybe on the radio that really excited you and you thought, 'That would be a nice way to earn a living.'

It was 'That's Alright Mama' by Elvis Presley and I really didn't think of it as a way to earn a living.  It just so totally mesmeized me that I had to get the record and get a record player - because until that time Patti Page was on the radio and 'How Much is That Doggie in the Window?' and music to me wasn't that important.  It was just something that was there.  So I went out and bought a little phonograph and got the single and had that one single that I played for ever, and I bought a guitar.  Said, "I have to learn how to play the guitar, I have to know how to do that, do something that real.''  That was a long time ago.  I was in high school and I haven't put the guitar down since.

Then Buddy Holly came and Little Richard and Fats Domino and Jerry Lee Lewis.  It was just the mecca of rock 'n roll at the beginning - one record after the other.  Then the Everly Brothers came out of nowhere with a string of hits...'Bye Bye Love' and 'Cathy's Clown' and 'Dream' and then 'Til I Kissed You'and 'Bird Dog,' one after the other.  You couldn't turn on the radio without hearing the top ten of all classics for all time.

I immediately got a rock 'n roll band together in high school - I went to a Catholic high school so I was immediately kicked out of school for playing rock 'n roll.  It's the classic American rock 'n roll story.  Then folk music started to come in because of the Kingston Trio.  I was in college at the time and folk music is really a fun, gutsy thing to play.  As soon as I picked up the guitar I had begun writing songs.  I didn't even think about it, I just started hearing songs to write.  I was writing songs in high school and met the Trio at a big rock show that was held at the LA County Fair that I was singing on at the time.

I had taken the bus into LA, which was like a two hour ride.  Went to a label called Arwin Records that Marty Melcher ran. A group called Jan and Arnie were on that label with a hit called 'Jenny Lee' and I got signed to the label.  Never really recorded.  I did one record for a company in Pasadena called Vita Records.  'Rocking Anna' on one side and a song of mine, 'Lorraine' on the back.  That was in 1957.  Ernie Freeman on keyboards.  The scam was, someone would write a song and he would say, "Alright, we will make a record for you."  I would be called up and I would sing the woman's song and he would press the record in his garage and try and sell it for her.  He would charge her a fortune and she'd never see any money and he'd make some money.

So I was at this concert.  At the concert were Johnny Cash, the Kingston Trio, Richie Valens, the Teddy Bears and The Champs.  I met the Trio and said, "Look, I've got some songs I'd like to play for you."  I played them a couple of songs and they recorded them and I made some good money.  At that time it was good money and, in high school, to make ten grand in one year for writing a song, I said, "Wait a minute!"  Because I was working at the race track at that time for my dad making 50 cents an hour.  Maybe bringing in, if I'm lucky, 15 bucks a week.  Said, "Wait a minute ten grand for this song!"

Frank Werber, the Trio's manager, called me and said, "Roulette Records want a folk group. Can you put one together?"  I said, "sure."  I found two guys and we flew back to New York, rehearsed on the airplane, went in and auditioned for this record company.  Absolutely fearless, the things I did at that time.  Never played in New York before, and we got a deal with Roulette Records.  The group was called the Cumberland Three and I stayed with them for about a year and a half.  Then we broke up and I joined the Kingston Trio when Dave Guard left.  I was with them until 1967.

Someone asked me the other day, "When did the Kingston Trio know that it was all over for us?"  It took us thirty seconds to realise it.  We were over in England.  We were here playing a concert tour and we played Sunday Night at the Palladium.  We were big fans of a group called The Springfields, with Dusty Springfield and her brother, who made the first folk rock albums ever recorded, I think.  Really gutsy group.  So we wanted to see them and they were having a concert here.  It was an awards concert and the Most Promising Group Award that year went to the Beatles, and we saw them play.  Nick and I looked at each other and said, "That's it, it's all over with us.  If that hits America we're done."  Two months later 'I Wanna Hold Your Hand' came out and at that time I said, "Okay, I want to be a songwriter and go and do it."

Within the two years that we were going to phase out, Dylan came along and Tim Hardin and The Lovin' Spoonful and all those people.  It made it more and more obvious to me that I had to do what I started out doing in the late 50's, which was be a singer/ songwriter.  When I left the Trio I didn't play any music at all on records or radio or anything for about a year.  I just locked myself in a room and wrote songs about America.  Did an album with Buffy Ford called "Signals Through the Glass" that was a very arty album, a lot of experimentation, and it was dreadful, a dreadful album.

At that time I met Nik Venet again who I'd met at Capitol when he was producing the Beach Boys and the Trio was recording.  Our side man at that time on record was Glen Campbell, who was also playing with the Beach Boys.  I was a big fan of the Beach Boys and hung out with Mike Love and Dennis and Al Jardine.  Nik Venet said, "You've got to do an album on your own.  Let me take you to Nashville."  I said, "Nashville?"  He said, "Oh, yeah, that's where it's happening."  So we went down and recorded "California Bloodlines" in I think about five or six days.  It was all live - the whole album was live - we made a two track as we were doing the album.  When we went to mix the album from the 24 track we found we couldn't get it as good as the two track.  The "California Bloodlines" album was never mixed.  It's a live tape.  It's essentially a live album.

You were just across the road from Dylan, weren't you?

He was doing "Nashville Skyline" at the same time.

Did you know that was going on?  Did you ever bump into each other?

We never ran into each other at all.  The same players were playing on my album as played with Dylan.  I said, "What's he doing over there?"  They said, "Oh, it's great.''  They were really in awe of Dylan.  The drummer that I was using, who will remain nameless, said every day before the sessions with Dylan he'd go in and throw up.  That was when Nashville was really at its peak of creativity.

Before ''California Bloodlines" you did have a couple of close scrapes with success.  There was John Phillips and Scott McKenzie, and there was the 'California Dreaming' story, wasn't there?

Oh, yeah, where'd you hear that?  John Phillips was an old, old friend of mine that I met before I joined the Trio.  I was a big fan of his and Scott McKenzie - John was one of the brightest and most talented songwriters around.  I was getting really disenchanted with the Trio from the matter of fact that it really wasn't mine.  I'd stepped into a successful situation and there was no way to win.   The first album I did with the Kingston Trio went to number two the first week and I said, "Isn't that terrific?"  They said, "No, it should have gone to number one.''  So there was no way to win at that point.  John and scott had a folk group called The Journeymen and we had talked about why don't we get a folk group together?  We rehearsed a few tunes and it sounded really good.  I told the Trio I was leaving - gave them my notice.  I get a call from John Phillips that Scott has locked himself in the hotel room and has not come out for three days and he thinks it would be a good idea if we didn't do this.  So I did a quick toe dance - I had to work my way back into the group without seeming like I was left without nothing or they'd chew me up alive.  I said, "I've reconsidered, I'm gonna stay with the group.  Maybe we can work out something with money or something."

Then Frank Werber who managed the Trio, also managed The Journeymen and John Phillips.  John did not give Frank any quarter at all, he did not take any guff from Werber.  John, at that time, said, ''I'm gonna go to the Virgin Islands."  I said, ''Great, call me when you get back."  He went down there with his wife, Michelle, and Denny Doherty who was with...I can't remember the Canadian group he was with, and Cass Elliot who was with the Big Three.  If I get into that we'll be here for ever.

It's all in 'Creeque Alley.'

Right...it's all in 'Creeque Alley.'  It is, really.  They took acid for a year and he came back and said, "John, I've got a group that I think you should hear."  He came up to the office in San Francisco.  I said, "Great, John, what have you got?"  He sat down and sang me 'California Dreaming' with the three of them and I literally fell off my chair.  He said, "Would you be interested in producing us?"  I said, "Interested?  Let's do it today!"  I went up and told Frank Werber and he said, "Get John Phillips out of this building."  I said, "Frank, you've got t hear this."  He said, "I don't want him in the building."  I said, "Frank, you're being crazy.  This is a goldmine."  I went down and told John, "We just can't do it.  Frank doesn't want you in the building.  Why don't you go down to LA and see Lou Adler?"  He went down there and saw Lou Adler and that was The Mamas and Papas.

There was also your close encounter with John Denver.

I have a great ability to pick people who are going to make it.  Kris Kristofferson was sweeping out the studio when I did "California Bloodlines,'' writing songs.  We'd hang out every night afterwards and he'd play me these songs like 'Me and Bobby McGhee' and 'The Pilgrim.'  I said, "Kris, you are going to be the biggest star in the country in no time."  He said, ''Oh, no, I'm just a songwriter.  I just wanna get a few songs recorded."  He was flying helicoptors at that time on his day off.

So John Denver, to get back to John, was a good friend of the Trio's.  He would always hang around the gig when we were there.  He was a fan and a friend in town.  When we'd get in town John would come on over and we'd hang out and Nick would always steal his girlfriend.  John was just an incredible singer and had a great way with an audience.  I said, "This guy is gonna be a big star."  I said, "John, why don't we sing together?" because we get along really well.  So he said, Great idea!"  He came up and stayed at my house for a month and we rehearsed 'Daydream Believer' and 'Leaving on a Jet Plane' and two other songs and did demos of them.

It was obvious that John was writing in one direction and I was writing in another one.  I said, "John, this is not gonna work out.  We are both kidding ourselves.  We both really want to be solo performers.  We're just sort of hedging our bet.  Until we can do that a duo is less people than a trio, so let's really just go out and do it."  He said, ''Yeah, you're right."  He knocked around for maybe a year recording albums and then, I guess, 'Country Roads' came out.  He had played me 'Country Roads' in New York and said, "John, I've got a smash,'' and played it for me.  I gave him the Woody Allen smile and to myself I thought, 'John, there is no way in hell that song will ever make it as a hit.  You poor guy !'  Of all the people that I've known for years, the one person that has helped me out whenever I was in a jam was John Denver, so I owe him a lot of favours.

You mentioned 'Daydream Believer' there, which was the best song The Monkees did, which of course you wrote.  How did you actually get that to The Monkees through everything that surrounded them?

It's who you know.  A friend of mine, Chip Douglas - it's all very cyclical - was one of three people that auditioned for the Kingston Trio.  He had a folk group in Hawaii.  He came to the States and got to be friends with Mike Nesmith.  Said he had some great ideas on how The Monkees should be produced, and then became producer of The Monkees.  He said, "John, do you have any songs for The Monkees?"  I said, ''Well, I've got this one that might do," and played him 'Daydream Believer.' He said, "Yep, that's the one."  They recorded it and I didn't think too much about it.  Thought, 'Nice album cut probably.' Then he said, "John, it's gonna be the single.''  I said, "Oh, my God!'' and within three weeks it was at number one and stayed at number one for a month, I think, worldwide.  That song kept me alive for three years.  It happened just at the right time, because I was making no money, and I could sit and write for a good two years without having to worry about going out to work.  Once again, as with the Trio, one song.  There was so much money I made off that one song I was able to buy time.  I was able to hang in there for the duration.

I interrupted you a little while ago and you were at "California Bloodlines."  Take the story from there.

"California Bloodlines" came out and got rave reviews from the critics.  Absolutely incredible reviews.  It went on a station in Los Angeles called KHJ that was the big top rocker that didn't even play album cuts.  For some reason the programme director thought it was a great album and it went on and the record company just went through the roof.  I thought, 'My God, this is going to happen!'  It was a top twenty album in Los Angeles and a top five single in San Francisco, and never moved out of the State.  The album got to number 100 on the charts and fell off.  Capitol were saying, "What is going on here?  What is happening?  Got to find you a producer."  I went in with Chip Douglas and did an album that just did not work at all, so they scrubbed the album.  Then I went in and did an album myself in Nashville that was okay, it was a lot like "Bloodlines," and they said, "No, that's not the album either."  So that album never came out.

So I got together with Peter Asher who was just at the time recording "Sweet Baby James" with James Taylor.  I'd really loved James' Apple album, and he'd really liked "California Bloodlines," so we hit it off immediately.  He said, "Can I come down and play on your album?"  I said, "Jesus Christ, yeah, come on down."  He said, "Do you know Carole King?"  I said no.  He said, "Of Goffin and King."  I said, ''Right.''  So she came down and I had Carole King on piano, James Taylor on guitar and Russ Kunkel on drums, Danny Kootch on guitar, Peter Asher was then hot as a pistol, the best musicians in town. We went in.  Rave reviews from the critics.  Robert Hilburn...''The best album of the year."  Nothing.  The album sold 12,000 copies nationwide.  Capitol was now going, "Ahem, I don't think this is going to work out, John.  We don't know what to do with you."

Joe Smith at Warner Brothers said, "I would kill to have John Stewart on my label."  Made a deal with Warners.  Recorded two albums for Warner Brothers... nothing.  Joe, at that point, would kill to have John Stewart off his label.  Luckily he didn't have to.  Just didn't pick up my option.

Then things were getting tight.  Labels were going, 'Okay, one of these guys huh? This guy's going nowhere.'  Don Birkheimer at RCA Victor said, "Yeah, we can do something with this guy.''  A nice man. Went to RCA Victor.  He said, "What do you want to do?"  I said, "I want to go back to Nashville.  I felt more comfortable there. Let's have Fred Carter produce this album."  Fred was one of the top guitar players of that time.  He did the guitar intro to 'The Boxer' and played on all the Simon and Garfunkel records.  Incredible guitar player - knew all the Nashville musicians. Fred and I went down and did "Cannons in the Rain" that we thought was a really beautiful album.  Came out...absolutely died.  Absolute disaster.  Nothing happened.  Great reviews again.  RCA's now beginning to feel the pangs.

We went in and said, "Let's do a live album ostensibly the greatest hits album.  We'll go to Phoenix, Arizona."  I was bigger than Elton John in Phoenix at this time.  I could sell out the biggest auditorium there overnight.  So we went there to create the illusion that I was a big star.  The applause would be there and all.  Nik Venet's idea.  Went there and recorded the album.  It came out. Once again, great reviews.  Nothing.  Now I was in big trouble.

I was dropped off ... oh, we did one more album for RCA Victor.  An album I've forgotten called "Wingless Angels" that Nik Venet produced.  This was the time that Nik was really into the Indian movement, hanging out with Marlon Brando.  Nik is the most fun producer in the world to work with.  You laugh from the minute you get in there to when you leave.  We yell at each other and scream and pound on the console, but we had so much fun we didn't care about this album.  He didn't and I was just saying, "What's going on here?"  I was at a real low at this point because I felt, 'I don't know what to do.'

When I got dropped from RCA I really had to take stock and say, 'What the hell am I gonna do?' because I was as cold as a mackerel at this time and no record company wanted to get near me.  They were saying, "John make us some demos."  I was back where I was eight years before making demos.  I met Al Coury when he was a local promotion man with Capitol and Al had just been named President of RSO, so I went over to talk with Al because he had always been a fan.  He told me what RSO was about and he said, "I'm interested in signing you but I've got to hear what you're doing now."

About six months went by and I didn't hear from him, so I asked the people at The Palomino Club in California to write letters to Al and ask him to sign me...and they did.  He was getting forty letters a week and he wasn't getting any letters at all because no-one knew where the offices were yet.  He said, "John what the hell are you doing to me?"  I said, ''Al, if you don't sign me soon the street demonstrations will begin," and he knew I meant it.  So he signed me to the label and I was the one guy that Coury had brought in, really, because all the other people were with Robert Stigwood.  It was really a personal vendetta with Al that he was going to prove that everyone was wrong and that I could sell records.

We racked our brains to figure out who was gonna produce that first album.  I suggested my brother, Michael, and we rolled that around.  Then he said, "I've got the best producer for you.  A guy named Mentor Williams.  Mentor produced 'Drift Away' and he has all your albums and loves them."  So I went down to Nashville with Mentor and found out that not only didn't he have all my albums, he'd never heard one of my albums.  It was...well, how can I tactfully put it?  I'll put it nicely.  In the studio, Mentor is Hitler.  Okay?  He would not let me talk to the other musicians.  The guitar player, Reggie Young, a great guitar player, would look over at me and go, "What do I play?''  I'd start humming a guitar line at him and Mentor would go, "Ah, ah, ah ....Reggie will find what he wants to play."  It was just a disaster.

We got back and Al heard the tapes...and I'd been calling Al the whole time saying, "Al, this is the Titanic down here."  He heard the tapes and Al said, "Oh, my God, what are we gonna do?"  I said, "Give me the tapes and eight grand and let me do what I can."  I got in and just started wiping things off and recorded three songs live and tried to piece it together.  We knew, when the album came out, that it was real marginal.  I said, "Let's give it a shot."  So given an unfortunate situation...it's not that Mentor didn't try.  He did his best, he didn't slough it off, he just was not in tune with what I really was trying to do.

You're very generous!

I knew I had a shot.  At least I could do another album because we couldn't count that first album as really an attempt.  It was just a disaster from the word go.  There were some good songs on "Fire in the Wind,'' some good tracks, but....

What was the story on '18 Wheels'?

It was during the gasoline shortage - the first one we had in America. The truckers went on strike because they couldn't get enough gas to get their goods to the market.  There was a trucker on the national news one night and when interviewed by the local newsman he said, "If you want that flag to wave, these 18 wheels will roll."  I said, "Oh, my God, let me write that down. That has got to be the greatest trucker line I've ever heard."  So I wrote '18 Wheels,' based on that and the bizarre lifestyle truckers live by with cheap thrills and the added inducements to stay awake.  Somewhere there's a trucker who's probably one of the best songwriters we have and doesn't even know it.

Anyway, "Fire in the Wind'' was gone.  What then?

Al called me and said, "John, let me lay it to you straight.  If you don't get a top ten record you're off the label.  I said, "Oh, okay."  He said, "I know it's tough but I do it every day."  I'll never forget that.  ''I know it's hard but I do it every day.''  He said, "You've got to tell me what you're gonna do.  You've got to bring me demos in."  I said, "Al, I've got three songs and...at this point, to really make a long story short, I'd met Lindsey Buckingham.

I said, "There's no-one in the world I want to produce my album except Lindsey Buckingham.  He's the only one who has any idea of how to make records that I really like.  I think he's got the secret."  I'd learned to play electric guitar listening to Lindsey Buckingham records and found out that Lindsey learnt to play electric guitar listening to Kingston Trio records, so we'd been talking to each other for eight years before we even met.

I said, "Lindsey, you've got to produce this album."  He said, "Okay, I'd like to do it but Fleetwood Mac is recording now and it's gonna be tough, but I'll go in and do some songs with you."  We went in and did 'Gold' 'Midnight Wind' and 'Runaway Fool of Love.'  I brought them in to Al and he said, "Nope, not hits."  At this point Lindsey and I were pounding our heads against the wall saying, "What does this man want?"  We would sit there and stare at the floor...''What does he want?"  Went in and did three more songs - not right.  I said, "Oh, Al, please."  He said, "Alright, go in and finish the album."

Well, at this point Lindsey said, "I can't continue.  I'm just so into the Fleetwood Mac album that I've got to do that, but I'll come in and play guitar whenever I can."  So I was left alone with the control board for the first time in my life.  I'd no idea what to do absolutely no clue on what it was all about - I just started learning.  I started fooling with it.  Lindsey would come in and make these mindboggling mixes and I'd say, "Lindsey, you've got to tell me what you're doing with those knobs," because it's so involved with eq, with peaking and shelving, low end and DDL's and all that.  "Lindsey, sometime teach me what you're doing."  He said, "I'm turning the knobs till it sounds good," and that really got me through the album.  I went, "Right!"  So I just started turning the knobs until it sounded good.  I had one engineer walk out on the album.  Said, "I can't take any more." 'Midnight Wind' I worked on for four months.  I played every possible guitar there was to play on it - I played it like Keith Richards - couldn't. find it.

But I worked just for eight months on that album and I didn't let anything go on it.  I started out recording like I always had in Nashville with everyone playing.  I said, "This is not working because I can't listen and play at the same time.''  I then went to making tracks with drum and one guitar.  I'd wipe the guitar and just have the drum track and I'd start building from there.  Fit the bass on, then a guitar and vocal and keyboards and more guitars, and just work day and night for eight months on the album.

Then Stevie came in and I said, "Stevie, this song is really your kind of song," so she heard the track and said, "Yeah, I'd like to sing on that."  She came in and we spent twelve hours one night doing 'Midnight Wind.'  She said, "John, this is a classic. It's the best record I've sung on since 'Rhiannon'."  That's when I started going, "Oh, yeah?  Maybe I've got something there." She said, "John,'' - she's got a great wisdom, she's got a great clarity - she said, "John, let's make hits.  We've all made the other kind of record.  Let's make hits.  They're more fun to make."  I said, "Right, let's make some hits!"  She came in a couple of times and we did 'Gold.'

At the end of the album I really thought it was my last album.  I really thought that it wasn't going to go again and I was making plans to get into other things in the record business.  When it got down to the last two months and I knew I had to get a hit, I just couldn't handle that problem.  I said, "If this is gonna be my last album, at least it will be the album I want it to be.  I'm just going to make it so it sounds good to me because, if it is, at least I won't look back and say, 'If I only had...' I'll do it the way I like it."

I did it the way I liked it, brought it in and Al listened to it and went, "Hmmm, well..."  Played it for the band - the band went, "Oh, well, it's not that good, is it?"  And Stevie said, "Oh, yeah, 'Gold,' 'Midnight Wind,' they are hits!"  Lindsey loved it, so I said, "Well, we'll see."  Then 'Gold' came out three weeks later and went on the charts at 78 in America.  The next week went to 44 - did a thirty point jump in one week - and before I knew it was all over the radio and 'Gold' went to number 5 and the album went to number 10.  Now 'Midnight Wind' is climbing up the charts over there.

Did you get that line from a trucker or anywhere, "people out there turning music into Gold"?

No, it was just because of that implant that Al gave me, "You have to get a hit."  And going to Lindsey's mansion in Hollywood!  I said, "Lindsey, what does it feel like living in a place like this?"  He said, "Well, when I first moved in I waited for my parents to show up to take care of it."  It's just a song away.  I've always maintained it's just one song away.  Lindsey was starving before Fleetwood Mac.  Just four years earlier he and Stevie were living in a one room apartment, so I said, "My God, there's people out there turning music into gold," and I just started playing that riff and built the song on that.

The title of the album, "Bombs Away Dream Babies," came from Dave Guard.  Exactly what did it mean, because that was the first thing that struck me when I saw the album?

To me it means, 'This is it - this is the whole enchilada.'

Yeah, now it fits now you've said it.

Yeah, this is it, this is bombs away dream babies.  Dave's everyday vernacular...if you ever get a chance to interview Dave Guard you mustn't miss it.  He's the brightest guy I've ever met and he talks another language than anyone else on the planet. His whole vocabulary is a show in itself...Presidentialmy captain...Strangle the falcons...'See you, Dave.'  See you in a trance, my captain...Bombs away dream babies.  He's just one of those guys - one of those guys? - he's the only guy like that.  I said, "Dave, I've got to have that for the album title."  He said, "Superior, my fuhrer."

The pressure that built up on you this album, obviously there's going to be more pressure, but of a different kind.  Now can he follow that?  Are you going to do the same thing?  Are you going to be able to go in there for the next one with the same attitude?

Better attitude.  It will be the first time I've done an album without the paranoia of 'What the hell do I do?'  The pressure of 'I've got to get a hit.'  I have to get another hit, but after eight months of woodshedding in the studio and not having to go in with a new producer who's going to tell me who I really am, and cringing through bad guitar parts, I will go in with the back knowledge of eight months and the excitement of having a hit record.  That's really showed up in my writing.  My writing is much freer now.  It's the most fun thing I've ever done - doing an album on my own - and Lindsey's gonna come in again.  It'll be a whole attitude of being a winner rather than an alsoran, which is a great psychological boost for anyone.  I'm really looking forward to it.  I'll take that pressure any day over the other one of trying to please everybody.  I don't have to answer to anyone on this record.  I don't have to get approval to go in.  I'll go in and do what I want from the get-go.  It's just a whole different attitude going into this record.  I might fall right on my can on this one but so what?