Omaha Rainbow : Issue 16
(San Francisco, CA, USA : November 18 1977)
The last interview you did for Omaha Rainbow was with Fraser Massey in February of 1976, so what I thought I'd do was take it from there. Through '76 you were working towards a recording contract as well as working on the road. Were there other companies involved besides RSO?
There were other companies that I approached, and at that time after
being with three major labels, the consensus of opinion 
amongst
the record executives was that if it was going to happen, it would have
happened. If you were a new writer starting out with the same material
and the same demos, they would probably jump at the chance of signing you.
They like new blood it's like a singles bar. They like 'em young.
So when I took in my demos there was not a great deal of excitement. There
was a great deal of, "Prove it to me John." The more I
went around and the more doors I had slammed in my face, the more I realised
that I had to zero in on a label that I wanted, and go after that label
with everything I had instead of spreading thinly going to a lot of labels.
After three or four labels said no, RSO was then within that spectre
of labels. I decided to go to RSO because they had not yet said no,
but they were not saying yes.
So that's what I did. I made demos with the band with Joni Mitchell's producer, Henry Lewy. He was, in fact, going to produce the album, and he got rheumatoid arthritis in the midst of doing these demos. We did them all in one take and we did them one after the other. They were just something to play for Al Coury. Al was deciding whether we had enough material to do an album, and the more Al sat on the box as far as signing me, the more determined I became to have him sign me, because this was the label I knew I wanted to be with. I talked to Al at our meetings and he told me the philosophy he had behind RSO.....and I've known Al for seventeen years since he was a local promotion man on Capitol, and the more he talked, the more convinced I became that this was the kind of label I needed - or anyone needs who is not a million seller.
The fact that RSO is a small label with just a few people on it, maybe ten or twelve, and they concentrate their effort on those people. It's no guarantee they are going to sell, but you have a better chance of selling if you have an album of quality. When you're with a company like Columbia or Capitol or RCA Victor, they put out an incredible amount of albums. They put out maybe fourteen albums a month, maybe even twenty, so a promo man gets in a dozen albums, he's got two weeks to work those albums before he gets another twelve in. If you don't make it within that two week period you're dead. In that time you're competing not only with other people on the streets from the other labels, you're competing with other people within your own label, and he's going to sell the ones he knows he can bring home. So RCA would push John Denver harder than they would push you, so it was really an impossible thing trying to get your album played with that kind of competition; and the competition is more now than it was then, it's getting harder and harder to get a record on the radio.
So you had produced the demos in '76. You were still working on the road - a lot?
As much as I could - it's what I do simply to pay the rent. California, Arizona, Colorado, around that area just in the western states. I had Peter Thomas on drums, Jon Woodhead was on guitar - he's now playing with Leon Russell, Arnie Moore was on bass, then Arnie left and Chris Whalen was the bass player. Shortly after Chris joined the band, Woodhead left and Joey Harris joined us.
Also, during this time, an album with Dave Guard and Nick Reynolds was being mooted.
It was discussed, but it didn't get further than that. Dave is now working with a group called the Modern Folk Quartet - he's a very fine musician and a lot of fun. Nick has got a ranch in Oregon and doesn't need to work, emotionally or financially.
So by the end of '76 things were crystallizing with RSO and you knew that you were on that label?
Actually, I signed the recording contract while I was recording in Nashville with Mentor Williams. I knew I was on the label, but as far as driving a hard bargain Al Coury is a master at it. Al is every bit a business man as he is a friend and he knew he had me, he knew I wanted to be on the label, so he struck a real tough bargain. It was with lawyers on up through till the time we started recording. June 1977, so that whole time we're talking about was waiting, anticipating, wondering and hoping. All of those things.
Did most of the Henry Lewy demo songs end up on the album?
A few of them did - '18 Wheels,' 'Wild Side of You,' 'Rock it in My Own Sweet Time,' 'Promise the Wind,' I think those were the only ones that ended up on the album. A lot of the songs never made it as far as recording them.
Did you start the new album in Nashville?
Yeah, with Mentor Williams producing, Kenny Buttrey on drums, Reggie Young on guitar, Shane Keister on piano, David Briggs played some piano, Troy Seals on guitar, John Williams on bass.....
No Fred Carter this time?
No, Fred was not on the scene. Fred had a recording studio of his own out in Goodlettsville and I never saw him the whole time I was there. I think he's with the All Stars, Levon Helm's group, so I think he was probably on the road. Fred is a very good friend and has been a great help to me and a great inspiration, but it was Mentor's session, Mentor picked the musicians.....exclusively.
There are various production credits on the album sleeve - to you, to Mentor and to both of you jointly. Is it fair to say that on the ones where you share production, you have done the remixing and a change of production to the basic tapes?
I did as much as I could with what I had to work with, with the money and the time allowed. Those that I produced with Mentor on the album - I really didn't produce them with him, I produced them after him. The ones by myself were done very quickly in Los Angeles with the band I have now, plus I had Jon Woodhead come in to play. 'Boston Lady, was a song I had written for the demos and had never quite set right with me. We needed a song desperately to go on the album because a lot of the songs had to be discarded from the ones we had done in Nashville. I sat down and worked it out with an acoustic guitar, so it could be done with an acoustic guitar and bass and get the mood across, yet be simple in instrumentation.
We didn't have the money at the time to spend on recording. We really had a very low budget because Mentor had spent an incredible amount of money at this point. I got an allocation from Al in order to finish the album. It was great, because Al could have just canned the whole thing right there, so we didn't have time to set-up the drums in the studio because it takes about an hour and a half to get a good drum sound, and it's 150 bucks an hour - that's even before you get one note on tape. I had Gary (Weisberg) play knees with his hands - we just miked his knees with one mike and it worked out fine. I've done that before on 'Earth Rider' (on the ''Willard'' album). We did it live and just overdubbed some background vocals.
'The Last Hurrah' was a song I threw on at the end. I wrote the song about the album, because I felt I had a right to write my own epitaph if that was the case.
It's a fairly short album in time.....
Is it?
(Buffy) I think so, too. It just goes by so quickly.
It's a bit short for you. I'm not criticising....
I know. It could be - I know what you're saying - it could be short. There were songs that Al could have put on there from the other sessions. Perhaps one or two could have been salvaged. We were down to the wire and Al was in England at the time I was doing this. So any decision that had to be made had to come from myself and Arthur von Blomberg who was working at RSO and was a great help to me during this whole mess. I decided I would hand Al the album with 'The Last Hurrah' as the most recently recorded song on there. Al received it, and he liked the song and kept it on there, though he could have moved another song on to there if he had wanted to. He could have done anything that he wanted.
What do you feel about the album now? Are you satisfied with it, in view of the difficulties?
I think it's the best album I've done and, in view of the difficulties, I think I am more than pleased with it. How it could have been, I think there are a few things on there that could have been better.
Would you consider completely producing your own next album?
Co-producing.
I don't think I could completely produce an entire album. I
could not find any real objectivity in singing it and going back and listening
to it and trying to decide. It's just wearing two different hats
and it would consume a lot of money and time. It could be done, but
I would have to have a couple of days to go back and listen to the tapes,
decide if they were what I wanted, then go back in again. When you're
doing that you're talking about a lot of money. I would like to co-produce
it; I'm gonna have to be really tough on that when the time comes. I
learned a great deal out of this and I just will not be in a position again
of having to do something I know instinctively is not going to work, and
in the last analysis does not work, and thousands of dollars have been
spent. I've been doing this for seventeen, twenty years, and I just
feel it is ridiculous to be at someone's mercy. To be surrogate to
someone who probably doesn't know as much about it as I do. I'm not
a hit producer, but I do know my music and I do know what works, and combined
with someone who does have a good commercial ear..... I'd love to do an
album with Lindsey Buckingham producing. I think what they do with
Fleetwood Mac is just terrific. Really simple, very hard driving
and very tasteful, and I love his guitar playing. I would love to
do an album with Lindsey, but what the realities of that are I don't know.
That's the way I feel.
RSO are terrific as far as hanging in there and working the record, and Al has a real dogged commitment to the album. The guys in the field, the promo men who take the record to the stations are really terrific, they're doing a great job. However, moving from a big label to a small label, I lose the problems of a big label and inherit the problems of a small label. The fact is, Al is just getting this label together - it's still a baby. It takes years, sometimes, for a label to find itself, so there are problems that are disappointing, but I will take those problems any day over the problems of a huge conglomerate. It's no insurance to success to be with RSO, but it's a damn sight better shot than RCA.
They seem to have a better success ratio to release?
God, it's amazing. They're a great singles' label; they've yet to come into their own as an album label, and I think they will do that in the next year. In as far as a label goes in putting out x number of songs and having x number of records come home, I think RSO has an incredible track record. Look at the number one records they have had, and their top ten singles. It's unbelievable. They don't release that many records; in fact, when they have a single come out it's almost expected it hits the charts. It also comes down to the fact that Al is a terrific record man, he's one of the best record men I've ever met. And he doesn't put out singles that usually are not going to make it.
It might be the case that I have a song that is not a top ten single, but if it gets anywhere in the top forty it could really help me - help sales a lot. There will be a single in January, but what the song is yet, Al hasn't made up his mind. There's been reaction on a lot of different songs and he wants to be sure that he's picking the right one.
You must be heading into a NewYear in a lot more optimistic frame of mind than for a long time. You've got a good band, and Gary Weisberg has fitted in really well. Where did you find him?
Yeah, he did very well, stepped right in. He's a friend of Chris Whalen who had come to the gigs and really knew the songs before he even played with us. So when Pete left, Pete worked with him for a couple of days and showed him the rudiments of what we were doing. I was up to my ears with the album at that time. In fact Gary was with the band before I even heard him play. Pete's girl friend said, "Aren't you going to hear your new drummer?" I said, "I would love to, but I just don't have the time right now," so it was really crazy. I mean, that would never happen now. I just had to take Pete's word, and Joey and Chris, 'cos they would tell me if he wasn't making it. Peter wouldn't have hesitated a second. So Gary worked really hard learnt the songs very quickly. He's excellent.
Going back to a single, do you have any preference?
I think 'Fire in the Wind.' Whether it's a hit or not, I don't know. There's three I really like - that one 'Promise the Wind' and '18 Wheels.' 'Boston Lady, is a bit too much of a ballad, I think, to be a single. If I knew what a single was I'd be making a lot of money, but I think 'Fire in the Wind' is the best shot.
Reading the album label, I notice you've switched your publishing to Bugle Inc. This is interesting as Bugle Inc. was the "Cannons in the Rain" album production credit. Is it the same.....
Oh, it's my corporation, and it's my publishing company. Then RSO has half the publishing on these tunes, and I have half. January Music was mine with Aaron Schroeder - he sold it to Michael Stewart (no relation) from UA, so they have all the other songs now. It's really strange, it's like selling your children. One day you make a call and you find out they've sold all your songs to somebody, and you've never even met these people. There's no chance in the world they're going to push these songs, not a prayer'. Then they bought Barry White, his publishing, and Randy Newman and.....it's the same, they push hits. They bought the whole catologue. Gets some BMI, gets some sales, adds to the stock of the company. I'm sure they'll send a few songs out, maybe three or four, but I'm not looking for anything at all to come out of it.
You're now managing yourself. How are you finding this?
Real hard. It's wearing two different hats. It's hard enough to go on the road and play music without trying to do the business side of it too. Trying to deal with a record company as an artist and as a manager really is difficult, because you make enemies that you should not be making because you go in and yell and scream, pound on the table, wonder why the record isn't in such and such a record store or something, and it's not easy. I wish I had a good one, but right now this is all I've got. I've been doing it myself for over a year.
Your brother, Michael, helped mix the album.....
Yeah, he did, he really saved my life on that. Michael is a good producer and he knows mixing in his sleep, and I hadn't done any mixing in a long time. He was terrific to do it and I couldn't have done it without him. He's had big success producing Billy Joel, Kenny Rankin, and he's recently produced Joy of Cooking which is doing very well. He's a top notch producer.
He produced "Lonesome Picker" for you, and then "Sunstorm''.....
I hate that album - detest it, I just think it's atrocious. I don't like it at all. I can't even do the songs anymore. I might do 'Arkansas Breakout,' but that's the only one. I can't even think what songs are on there. 'Kansas Rain,' which we don't do anymore. A real marginal album as far as I'm concerned - I just don't like it. I'm tainted on those songs. I have no objectivity about them whatsoever.
Two albums from Warners - was there a third one ever in the pipeline?
It was year by year, and when the year was up they said, "See you later." It was one of those.
You're managing yourself, but do RSO handle your publicity for you?
Yes, they do, I stay out of any kind of publicity entirely. I think it's a very delicate thing to try to do. It's a much needed thing but a delicate thing. You could really over-hype something, really over-expose something to the press that gives you something to live up to that is not possible. Or it makes people wary of you rather than accepting you. When Jesse Winchester came out of Canada back to the United States he got a huge press - Rolling stone, The LA Times - and I think Jesse got some bad reviews out of that, or some marginal response that wouldn't have happened if the hype hadn't been there. I think what happened was people had Jesse shoved down their throats more than they should have. I think if Jesse had just appeared on the scene and did what he does, he would have gotten a great reaction. As I said, it's a delicate line, I could be wrong, maybe it worked entirely well for him. I just felt it gave him a whole lot to live up to. Once those hurrahs are gone, you're back to the basic fact of you and the album and the road. Now you've got to follow that; now you've got to maintain that.
Elvis Costello's getting a lot of press over here, it is really terrific, but to try to maintain that.....in America the press is a very fair weather friend. They can love you one minute and hate you the next, so to maintain after that much publicity and hoopla and a tour is very difficult. This is Elvis's first album, and this is my ninth out, so I know what it's like to be there in that position. He's looking at three or four, God knows how many albums, and woe betide the guy that gets that much publicity and the album doesn't sell astronomically well. Woe betide trying to come back again and get the same kind of promotion. They just don't do it.
And if you do get an album that sells well, the people that loved you on your first album will hate you on your second album. It's just the way the thing's played. To answer your question; publicity, I let them take care of it, I don't want to know about it.
Do you think there's a type of fan that would hate you because you're successful and resents the media attention it brings?
Yes, there are people like that, and there are people who are fans before you make it, that aren't fans after you make it. I know this was true with James Taylor. A lot of people that I knew at the time just loved James when he played at The Troubadour and played very small gigs. Then "Sweet Baby James" came out and they didn't like him anymore because he wasn't theirs anymore - he belonged to everybody. That's something you have to live with.
This tour that you're on now, does it finish here in San Francisco at The Boarding House?
It's not really a tour - it is a tour in a way, but we are on the road with such regularity.....we break for four or five days and then play The Palomino, then we go up and we play in Santa Cruz with Tom Waits. It goes on, we just have a break from time to time. We started this tour in Flagstaff, Arizona; then Boulder, Colorado; then Miami at the festival down there. Then New York; then here in San Francisco.
You said onstage last night about starting the festival in the afternoon - was that true?
All true, yeah. 12.30 in the afternoon.
Al said you were going to be on before Neil Young.
It didn't work out that way - we were on before Neil. Waaaaay before. About five hours before Neil was on. Neil did a show that I didn't believe, it was just incredible, just the best thing I've seen in years. Fourteen strings, a bank of six acoustic guitars on one side, the band has never sounded better, Neil has never sounded better. It was great.
New York followed this?
Yeah, at The Other End, a great place - used to be The Bitter End. I played there about five years ago, and it was great to go back there, especially with this band. I've never been there with a really good band. The same terrible sound system, but a bigger club. We got a terrific response. It was a California reception I've not had that in New York, ever.
Have you had much press interest here in California on this trip?
In Miami, New York, Boston, yeah.....but I've been out in California so long, when I come through I don't even get reviewed anymore, I play here so much. I play The Boarding House twice a year, for instance. There's no interest in California, except for Bob Hilburn who wrote a really nice article in a recent Los Angeles Times (See O'Bsessions in OR15).
What are the prospects of seeing you over in England in 1978?
Still in the talking stage. I want to do the best thing, and I don't know what exactly that would be. I would like to do TV and a concert in London. There has been a lot of reaction in Germany, so I'd like to go there. I'd like to play everywhere in Europe if I could, but I don't think that's possible. I'm big in Spain.....
(Buffy) You're big in Spain?
Big? Right under Elvis.
(Buffy) Really? Do they understand English?
I don't know.
(Buffy) Don't they care?
I don't care. I don't think I want to go there with a dictatorship, and all.
It's getting easier now, it's changed in the last year a heck of a lot.
Since Franco went, yeah, it's lightened up? I don't know if I want to take the chance, or not. If you end up in jail in Spain.....I mean, they still torture people over there.
(Buffy) But why would you ever end up in jail?
I have no idea. Jaywalking, maybe they don't like the way I look.....you know what I'm talking about. You may never be heard from again if you go over there. End up with your finger in an electric socket!
Oh, it's not as bad as that.
Weeeell.....
OK. Let's finally look ahead.....have you any material prepared for a new album?
I've got two songs I'm working on now, that's all I've got. They're stronger rock material. It seems these days I get a better overall response to them. I enjoy doing them and I think that translates to other people. There are songs like 'Boston Lady' and 'Bloodlines' I still like doing - it's fun to be able to do both. I'm not even really thinking about the new album yet. If I do another album, it will be a very up album, a strong album.
We were in Santa Cruz and I found a Cumberland Three album.....
Oh, you're kidding. Do you know how hard those are to find? That album has got to be worth about $200.
I paid 50 cents.
At the market, but I know people who would pay $200 for it.....I would, just to destroy it !